Re: The Avengers

Teague wrote:

Zarban, you've been approaching this from the standpoint of "sexism as gender bigotry," not sexual objectification per se. Can you think of a relevant example of what you would call male sexism and female sexism, in that case?

Female sexism tends to take the form of depicting men as incompetent and laughing at their stupidity and impotence, especially when men are shown having to cook or take care of small children.

But my point is only that all of this is a discussion about gender politics in Western culture that has almost nothing to do with this particular movie or with comic books. One person just used a minor piece of this movie's marketing materials to make a joke about it. That's all.

Last edited by Zarban (2012-11-24 20:59:29)

Warning: I'm probably rewriting this post as you read it.

Zarban's House of Commentaries

Re: The Avengers

I wonder if those pictures in Ellie and Vogue and whatnot are just a way of subtly programming women to think that that look and attitude is the way they need to be to get men...  or something along those lines...

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Re: The Avengers

Oh of course. It's all a big conspiracy by female editors and gay photographers.

Warning: I'm probably rewriting this post as you read it.

Zarban's House of Commentaries

Re: The Avengers

switch wrote:

I wonder if those pictures in Ellie and Vogue and whatnot are just a way of subtly programming women to think that that look and attitude is the way they need to be to get men...  or something along those lines...

Yup. Like all the dudes in comics being overly buff.


ShadowDuelist wrote:

For the record, I'm actually on Dorkman's side..

Yeah, we're on the same team then big_smile

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105

Re: The Avengers

switch wrote:

I haven't tried playing the avengers DVD on my comp yet.  I will say though that I'm getting pretty tired of itunes.  I can't buy anything on itunes without DRM being added to it.   mad

The only thing it's on is video and books. It's not on the music, as they got rid of that a long time ago once the music labels let them (they let other online stores have DRM-free songs first, in an attempt to force competition as the labels didn't like Apple dictating terms). Is there anyplace you can buy DRM-free downloaded movies that aren't public domain?

I write stories! With words!
http://www.asstr.org/~Invid_Fan/

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Re: The Avengers

Zarban wrote:

Women's romance novels, which I hold to reveal the darkest heart of the female psyche, uniformly depict protagonist men as handsome, confident, and competent. On the few occasions when those novels depict sex graphically, it has become something of a scandal.

This makes me think that you have not read a lot of romance novels.  Their depiction of men is hardly uniform, at least in the way you're describing.  If you don't want to dive into that section of the library, I would recommend you check out Janice Radway's Reading the Romance, or perhaps Tania Modeleski's Loving With a Vengeance.

Also, what are you trying to prove with those magazine shots you're posting? Because all I'm seeing is that even women who run magazines have internalized the idea that everyone wants women filtered through the male gaze.  Even Anna Wintour can be wrong.

avatar wrote:

You have to admit that since Ellen Ripley and Sarah Connor, women are portrayed a lot less passively than in previous decades. Today they can be strong, independent, snarky, decisive, and confident.

Yeah, they can be. Are they? Or are Ellen Ripley and Sarah Connor the minority?  One, two, or ten examples doesn't mean sexism is over anymore than Uncle Tom's Cabin being popular meant racism was over. Women have a long way to go, especially in the media.

drewjmore wrote:

I did not intend to limit the expression of sexism to only clothing, but clothing has been one of the many ways liberated women have expressed themselves. Rising hemlines, bikinis, these things happened as part of women's battle against sexism.

Y'all should check out the brilliant Ariel Levy and her book "Female Chauvinist Pigs" or this link that I posted earlier: http://www.comicsalliance.com/2011/09/2 … rheroine/.

It is the way in which these things are utilized that makes them empowering, not their presence.  There is nothing inherently sexist or empowering about a bikini or a hijab. It is the way our culture views them and forces them onto us that makes them good or bad. Or forces them onto me, that is, speaking as the (only?) lady in this discussion.

On that note, I will probably bow out of this discussion soon.  Being someone who has to deal with sexism and misogyny in this fandom, reading some of this is frustrating.

ETA:

Zarban wrote:

But my point is only that all of this is a discussion about gender politics in Western culture that has almost nothing to do with this particular movie or with comic books.

Unless this movie was made in some vacuum where it was not influenced by Western culture or gender politics, this is wrong.  If it was made in that way, please point me to that vacuum because I would love to live there, especially with Joss Whedon.

Last edited by Allison (2012-11-24 21:16:12)

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Re: The Avengers

Allison, thanks for the posts. I understand you being tired of this (ongoing, worldwide) conversation.

For the idiots like myself, could you summarize your view on the subject before moving on? Is it basically "yep, a lot of this shit is sexist, some of it isn't, and the bigger problem is communicating why it's the case to folks who don't understand?"

Teague Chrystie

I have a tendency to fix your typos.

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Re: The Avengers

Allison wrote:
Zarban wrote:

Women's romance novels, which I hold to reveal the darkest heart of the female psyche, uniformly depict protagonist men as handsome, confident, and competent. On the few occasions when those novels depict sex graphically, it has become something of a scandal.

This makes me think that you have not read a lot of romance novels.  Their depiction of men is hardly uniform, at least in the way you're describing.

Also, what are you trying to prove with those magazine shots you're posting? Because all I'm seeing is that even women who run magazines have internalized the idea that everyone wants women filtered through the male gaze.  Even Anna Wintour can be wrong.

No I haven't read a lot of romance novels. That was a joke. My point is that all of society depicts men who are good catches as handsome and successful.

The point of the fashion photos is that this discussion is far, far bigger than comic books and is not solely a problem of the way men view or portray women, because they are depicted the same way in magazines by women, for women. People keep posting links to comic books like comic books are the heart of the problem.

Warning: I'm probably rewriting this post as you read it.

Zarban's House of Commentaries

Re: The Avengers

Zarban wrote:

  People keep posting links to comic books like comic books are the heart of the problem.

No, but comic books were the heart of the discussion.

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Re: The Avengers

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m939x0E0mA1r8a8fro1_500.gif

For the record, I'm on Dorkman's side as well.

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Re: The Avengers

Who was fighting? http://www.empireonline.com/forum/image/s5.gif

I like that gif, though big_smile

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Re: The Avengers

TheMargarineMan wrote:

For the record, I'm on Dorkman's side as well.

What is Michael's side?! That comic books make women look sexy?! SO STIPULATED. My point is that they're no guilty of this than any other part of society, so this thread should be about the movie and not endless hand-wringing about how women are portrayed in comic books.

Warning: I'm probably rewriting this post as you read it.

Zarban's House of Commentaries

Re: The Avengers

Zarban wrote:

No I haven't read a lot of romance novels. That was a joke.

Ah, my feminist wrath glasses were on so I missed the humor. I do that a lot, so I apologize.

Jimmy B wrote:
Zarban wrote:

  People keep posting links to comic books like comic books are the heart of the problem.

No, but comic books were the heart of the discussion.

Yup.

Teague wrote:

Allison, thanks for the posts. I understand you being tired of this (ongoing, worldwide) conversation.

For the idiots like myself, could you summarize your view on the subject before moving on? Is it basically "yep, a lot of this shit is sexist, some of it isn't, and the bigger problem is communicating why it's the case to folks who don't understand?"

Well the bigger problem is obviously the sexism and misogyny that fills comic books, posters, etc.  but communicating that is that way is definitely the bigger hurdle to jump over. I think once people start realized the way women are portrayed is a problem things will change.  As long as we say things like "it's just a poster!" or "Joss Whedon made this so it's not sexist!" nothing is ever going to get done. That's not much of a summary but it'll do.

I will probably stick around to lurk because this thread is overflowing with material for my paper on Joss and post-feminism. Go, guys, go!

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Re: The Avengers

Allison wrote:
Lamer wrote:
Allison wrote:

As for female characters having their agency taken away, let's talk about the mess with Babs and Steph Brown happening over at DC.

Go on, what mess?

There's more to read about this if you want to dig around the interwebs for it, but here's your summary:

Dan Didio refuses to allow any of the DC writers to use Steph Brown or Cass Cain. But Cass and Steph aren’t just not allowed to be Batgirl, they’re not allowed to exist at all.  He said it's because Babs is "more iconic" than the other two but a) Babs was added only after he ordered the removal of Steph and b) that's still no excuse to remove Steph from her well-received position as Spoiler AND not let her be a Robin anymore.

That falls more into shitty writing and bad decision making than sexism. Steph was awesome as Batgirl (she slapped Batman, if that's not empowering then I don't know what is wink) and Barbara was much more interesting as Oracle. Now that she's back as Batgirl I'm gonna have to start hating her again.

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Re: The Avengers

Zarban wrote:

this thread should be about the movie and not endless hand-wringing about how women are portrayed in comic books.

This thread is about the commentary not just the film. The discussion has stemmed from one in the commentary.....

Anyway, I'm out before this thread explodes big_smile

Last edited by Jimmy B (2012-11-24 23:02:29)

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Re: The Avengers

To be clear, I agree with Michael completely that these are both bad arguments:

* The sexy depictions of women are not sexist because men in comic books are also sexualized.
* Yes, women are sexualized for the male audience, but men are idealized because that's what women want, therefore comic books aren't sexist.

Men and women are both depicted in ways that make them attractive to their primary audience, which is young hetero men, and young hetero men don't want to see steaming hunks of sexy man-flesh. So, yes, comic books are sexist BUT NO MORE SO THAN OTHER THINGS. And if women's magazines have the same kind of depictions, then this is vastly bigger than comic books or movies, and it's silly to talk about it solely in this one context.

The real question should be: why wasn't the movie called Avengers Assemble and why wasn't that battle-cry used in the movie?

Last edited by Zarban (2012-11-24 23:47:50)

Warning: I'm probably rewriting this post as you read it.

Zarban's House of Commentaries

117

Re: The Avengers

This conversation has gotten so far afield as to be pretty meaningless at this point.

Let me explain. No there is too much, let me sum up.

Dorkman et al believe because male characters aren't generally posed in the same overtly sexualized positions as female characters (ie said Avengers artwork), that men aren't sexualized [as much?]. I et al believe that men are sexualized as well (if not necessarily as much), but in a way that reflects the underlying attributes that (generally) define attraction for women, which are more about confidence, social status, and a certain kind of dominance, than physical looks alone. Getting upset that men are not sexualized/idealized/objectified in exactly the same way as women strikes me as slightly ridiculous.

This does not mean that sexism, objectification, or other cultural inequality don't exist in comics or culture at large. It's just that the cited example is a terrible way to make the point. Doubly so when it's coming from a movie written and directed by noted empowered female character creator Joss Whedon (even if we're talking marketing and not the actual movie).

K?

Re: The Avengers

Zarban wrote:

The real question should be: why wasn't the movie called Avengers Assemble and why wasn't that battle-cry used in the movie?

It was called that over here.

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Re: The Avengers

Owen Ward wrote:
Zarban wrote:

The real question should be: why wasn't the movie called Avengers Assemble and why wasn't that battle-cry used in the movie?

It was called that over here.

Exactly!

And how did they not put Bruce Banner in purple stretchy pants right from the beginning? I mean, he figured that out in Incredible Hulk. Somehow they showed up for the final battle, tho. Where did those come from? That's not what he got from Harry Dean Stanton, is it?

Also, can we discuss the hairiness? That was creepy. Hulk should not be hairy.

Warning: I'm probably rewriting this post as you read it.

Zarban's House of Commentaries

Re: The Avengers

Exactly, radiation makes your hair fall OUT.

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Re: The Avengers

Brian wrote:

noted empowered female character creator Joss Whedon

Can we stop acting like Joss Whedon gets a free pass because he calls himself a feminist? The guy has some issues with women and a lot of his work is problematic and damaging.

And now I would really like to move on to the discussion of the Hulk's pants because it bothered me too. But is he really that hairy? I haven't really noticed it in any of my viewings.

Last edited by Allison (2012-11-25 03:57:27)

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Re: The Avengers

Allison wrote:

Can we stop acting like Joss Whedon gets a free pass because he calls himself a feminist? The guy has some issues with women and a lot of his work is problematic and damaging.

Yes, backdated to 2009.

However, the question now is: hairy Hulk, Yes or no?

Warning: I'm probably rewriting this post as you read it.

Zarban's House of Commentaries

Re: The Avengers

Zarban wrote:

However, the question now is: hairy Hulk, Yes or no?

I suppose it was done to Ruffalize him. And who am I to judge the chest hair of such a great man?

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Re: The Avengers

Aw. Aw. Allison was gonna segue into a really interesting thing!

Sigh. Hulk hair. I'll allow it. But I strongly endorse the prospect of an Allison-penned Joss thread, because I'm curious as all hell.



I for one didn't notice the hair we're apparently talking about. Was he hairy?

Teague Chrystie

I have a tendency to fix your typos.

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Re: The Avengers

They talk in a number of the FX articles etc. about how they gave him some hair on the chest and under the arms, and also that he's got more of a weightlifter build, with a bit of softness around the middle, rather than the competitive bodybuilder no-body-fat look he had in the previous incarnations.

They didn't go full-Blanca on the chest hair or anything, but there's a coating of fuzz that's noticable close-up and helps him feel a little more real. One of those "you may not have noticed but your brain did" things.

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